Thursday, October 16, 2008

Obama Disses Plumbers

A plumber is the guy he's fightin' for. (Laughter.) How many plumbers you know are makin' a quarter million dollars? (Laughter.)

Barry O did listened and then willfully ignored what Joe said. Joe does not make a quarter million dollars a year. Joe said, "I'm gettin' ready to buy a company that makes 250..., 270...80 thousand dollars a year..."

This is the man Democrats are fightin' for - Barack Obama, an arrogant snob without a sense of propriety, proportion, perspective, respect, or decency. Least of all, he has no sense of probability. Anyone who's owned a house knows the plumbing will fail sometime.

The life of Indigo Red is full of adventure. Tune in next time for the Further Adventures of Indigo Red.


Gayle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gayle said...

It's already all over the web now that Joe may not even be a plumber. The liberals can't stand him! LOL!

Indigo Red said...

Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher is his given name. He goes by Joe. The father of my high school buddy was a construction company owner named Byron. He went by Joe, his middle name.

Joe is not a licensed plumber. He is a plumber. Joe works for a plumbing company that he wants to purchase. The current owner, a man named Newland, is a licensed plumber. Joe and all the other employed plumbers work under Newland's license. That's how it works everywhere. Joe is studying for his license for when he does buy the company next year.

Joe owes back taxes of $1200.00. That may be related to his divorce, I don't know, it's just an educated guess.

McCainSpace sent RG this message: "It's just been announced that Joe owes Ohio 1200 dollars in taxes. If we can find an address, let's send 5 dollars each to him to relieve his tax burden. I think it's the least we could do for someone that stood up for America."

TOLEDO, OH 43615

The Democrats are hammering Joe very hard on the details that they don't understand. Anything to destroy America and Americans.

Remember, Gayle, the news media wants Barack Obama to win and Kos wants to literally destroy the Republican Party and the Conservative Movement as stated at Daily Kos.

Joe may have a few warts, but still is more real Americana than Barack Obama. None of the criticism of Samuel Joseph himself has denied the truth of what he had to say. The fact that he is just an ordinary, common, high school educated tradesman who understands the ramifications of an Obama tax plan is a wonderful testament to the intelligence of the average American. The elites didn't frighten him and now they're trying to destroy him.

Thousands of small business owners have been trying to say what Joe said on camera, but couldn't get noticed. Joe got noticed. The miniscule quibbels are Democrats pissing into the wind.

Carrie said...

1) If Joe isn't going to be making $250K+ a year, then he will pay the same in taxes OR PAY LESS under the Obama plan.

2) Obama answered the question assuming the most extreme scenario, which is that Joe will take home a quarter-million dollars or more a year. He didn't "willfully ignore" anything. He in fact answered the question assuming the scenario that was LEAST FAVORABLE to him. What's indecent about that?

3) Under the Obama plan, the middle class will be better able to afford to HIRE Joe when their plumbing DOES fail.

4) Only 2% of American households make $250K or more in a year, and only 5% of small businesses. How can you say we wants to destroy America and Americans when we want to make things better for 98% of them?

5) Let's say Joe makes $290K next year. That means his taxes will go up ONLY for the incremental amount from $250-$290. So, he will pay 39% tax on that $40K, instead of 36%. That comes out to $1,200. Is that really so much to ask him to pay so that we can make America better? That's only an extra 0.4% of his total income for the year!

6) I don't care what Joe's name is. I don't care if he got his plumbing license or not. I don't even care that he owes back taxes. I do care that people still don't seem to understand that Obama's tax plan will save money for the vast majority of Americans. My family makes over $250K a year. We are willing to pay MORE so that we can have good roads, good schools, and independence from foreign oil. Not to mention help this country get out of the recession.

Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. It's time for the top 2% of earning Americans to step up and pitch in.

Indigo Red said...

Thank you, Carrie. All of what you wrote is very instructive.

However, neither you nor Obama addressed Joe's question. He was concerned, once he owned the 2-man company, about hiring more employees, obtaining more trucks, and expanding the business beyond the current $250K-280K company earnings to date.

His concern is that once his business grows, he will be in a higher tax bracket which, under the Obama plan, will cause the company to pay a higher tax. Further, his next concern is that after paying the higher tax, will he still be able to employ multiple plumbers or will the tax increase force a staff downsizing.

I think that is a very legitamate concern not just for Joe the Plumber, but for all the small business owners who may be forced to remain under $250,000 annual sales receipts just to stay in business. At the same time, without growth, the business cannot survive.

The Obama plan will put many companies out of business and employees out of a job.

You say, "Let's say Joe makes $290K next year." Neither Joe nor his employer make $250K-290k per year. The company had that many billable dollars last year. From that, the owner and Joe drew a salary of far less than $250,000. Most of the money goes to busness expenses and to paying business to business obligations.

You ask, "Is that really so much to ask him to pay so that we can make America better? That's only an extra 0.4% of his total income for the year!"

YES! It is too much to ask anyone to pay more of their hard earned money in taxes to pay for people who do not work or are here illegally all just to make Liberals feel better about themselves.

I do not doubt Obama and all the Liberals want to make life better for Amnerica and Americans. Your compassion doesn't feed people nor does it employ the unemployed. It only makes a nanny of the state and whiney little cry babies out of the population who no longer can provide for themselves. You all just don't see that the Democrat policies do nothing but infantilize normally smart and ambitious adults.

If you want to pay more money to the Treasury Dept, go right ahead. You can simply write a check to US Treasury, write 'gift' on the memo line and you've done your good deed. No one says you can't pay the government all you want. But don't force that personal desire on the rest of us.

Get your own business, Carrie, and stay out of the business of others.

Carrie said...

If he makes "far less" than $250K, then he will SAVE MONEY ON TAXES under Obama. And I can't answer the other question without knowing what KIND of company Joe runs (C-corp? S-corp? LLC?) but given that things like the new truck Joe mentioned can be tax deductible expenses, I'm not yet convinced that he's describing a scenario in which he'll lose a single penny, even if the business's profits are high.

If it's so damn unfair to "ask anyone to pay more of their hard earned money in taxes to pay for" others (some of whom ARE hardworking legal Americans with jobs, as you know), why does America have a progressive tax at all? If you watch the whole clip with Obama and Joe, you'll see that Obama addresses that issue, saying that to keep government running with a flat tax in place, sales tax would go through the roof. Obama wants to support small businesses so they can hire more people, make new jobs, and everyone can work hard to get where they want to be. McCain's plan, on the other hand, continues to give tax cuts to huge companies that send jobs overseas.

I sent my "gift" funds this year to people I can trust -- not the Bush administration, but the Obama campaign. (And also the local cops, and firefighters, and some charities I believe in.)

Oh, and if you want people like me to stay out of your business, don't have a comments section on your public blog.


Indigo Red said...

This public blog is not my business, Carrie, It is a hobby in which all are welcome to comment, so long as they do not start twisting words to their own use and meaning. Unless you are a complete moron, you know full well the "business' to which I referred was the money making entreprise that sustains families, economies, and nations. Never in all of history has a collective, centrally planned economy ever benefitted the individual or the nation.

Carrie said...

Sigh. I thought the little smiley face would make it clear that my last line was a joke. Apparently not.

A final thought regarding what is good for the economy: The Economist magazine surveyed members of the prestigious National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) and responders overwhelmingly think Obama far surpasses McCain in his grasp of economics and think Obama's plan is superior. About 80% think Obama is better for the nation's growth, in fact.

Here's a link:

Here are some relevant excerpts from the article:

Even among Republicans Mr Obama has the edge: 46% versus 23% say Mr Obama has the better grasp of the subject.

“John McCain has professed disdain for ‘so-called economists’, and for some the feeling has become mutual,” says Erik Brynjolfsson, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Sloan School of Management. “Obama’s team is mainstream and non-ideological but extremely talented.”

Mr Obama, says Jonathan Parker, a non-aligned professor at Northwestern’s Kellogg School of Management, “is a pragmatist not an ideologue. I expect Clintonian economic policies.”

Twice as many economists think Mr McCain’s plan would be bad or very bad for long-run growth as Mr Obama’s. Given how much focus Mr McCain has put on his plan’s benefits for growth, this last is quite a repudiation.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Carrie, you can't recognize blatant socialism when it is staring you in the face?

Gayle said...

Indigo, arguing with Carrie is like arguing with a brick wall. She's not going to change her opinion, and neither are we. Having studied history we absolutely know what Obama's plan has done to other countries, and you don't even have to go to history to find out. France is in dire straights and so is England. Canada did finally get a conservative Prime Minister in Harper, but the parliament is still full of liberals, so they are still having problems and the Canadians I know absolutely hate the mess in their socialist health system. Good grief, even with facts staring them in the face, liberals will deny, deny, deny. What I don't understand is why they go into conservative blogs and press their ridiculous point of view. They aren't in your comment thread to learn anything. They actually think they can make us change our minds regarding socialism, which Obama is definitely pushing. I have to wonder how many of them even know who Saul Alinsky was, or that Obama got much of his political philosophy from him? Or if they do, then it's obvious they don't care.

My husband and I already donate generously to our favorite charities. I wouldn't want Obama taking that money and using it any way he sees fit, because then I wouldn't be able to give it to those I want to give it to. It's ridiculous! Not that we're in the 250K department, but if we were I would feel the same way. My money is my money and I should be able to decide how I want to spend it.

Now let's pretend that Obama would do great things with my money (HA!). Well, I said "let's pretend." If he raises taxes now, during an economic crisis, we are going to have another depression and the state of the economy now by comparison will look good to us. His plans would totally destroy our economy and anyone who doesn't realize that needs to seriously do some studying - unless destroying our economy is exactly what they want!

By the way, I have proof that the polls are skewed. :)

Indigo Red said...

Blatant Socialism and blatant Capitalism are both equal. The Liberal knows this because someone told them over and over again until there is no question about questioning the consensus opinion. What makes the two equal? Well, they're both blatant.

Yes, Gayle, those people do expect that we will see the light once we just close our eyes, clap our hands, and think only good thoughts. The only roadblock they can see is Conservatives who just get in the way of their Utopia.

It's like how I see Paris - a beautiful city with too damned many French people. The French thought they would improve their beautiful city with the addition Islamic culture. Now Paris is a beautiful city with too damned many French people AND Muslims.

I will check out your poll post a little later. I saw the headline on the RSS feed and am happy the ball is being picked up by a bigger bloggger. Polls are the thing that drives the perceptions that drive the vote.

Carrie said...

Gayle, how can you know that arguing with me is like a brick wall when you haven't even TRIED to have a fair discussion with me? Indigo DID start to have a reasonable discussion, although I unfortunately got him off track with my misunderstood joke about "getting into his business."

I don't think people will "see the light" if they think happy thoughts. I tried to address certain issues that appeared to be of concern to you.

Hey, if you think it's totally wrong for the rich to pay more on their highest income, then that's your philosophy, and while I disagree with it, I can UNDERSTAND it. You think you should decide how to spend your money, I get that. And if McCain wins, I hope you guys make more than $250K a year, because otherwise you will be paying higher taxes, which means McCAIN will decide how to spend your money, not you, AND HE WILL GIVE IT TO ME, because I'm one of the "rich."

I tried to offer a broader perspective on the matter by linking to an Economist survey that shows that, BESIDES TAXES, most economists think that America as a whole will grow more and be more financially successful under Obama. Maybe you don't believe it, but again, at least I tried to offer a financial argument you might appreciate.

Gayle's right that I'm not going to change my mind on voting Obama, but that's mostly because I'm pro-choice, and there will probably be 2-3 Supreme Court justices picked by the next president. But hey, at least I tried to have a real debate among individuals, I didn't go off about "Conservatives" and "Republicans" in general.

Mike H. said...

Carrie, you've decided that people should give you their money so that you can distribute it to those of your choosing.

Fair enough.

Now I think that you should start wearing a full set of clothing because it's immoral to show any skin if you're a woman. I take as my proof the situation in the state of Saudi Arabia (that of peace and harmony) and the further state of affairs in the UK (that of societal change that is causing extreme pain because of the process). I take as my authority the dictum that the individual should do what is best for his/her society.

I'm sure that you will agree that it is in your best interest. Will you change before the requirement is upon you? Think of all the pain that you will alleviate by your unselfish action.

Carrie said...

Mike, you didn't read what I said at all. I do NOT think people should give their money to me. I think 98% of people should keep as much of their money as possible, which is the Obama plan. More people will lose more money under McCain, because all the big tax cuts will go to big companies who are sending jobs overseas.

If you make less than $250K a year, and you vote for McCain, then YOU are the one deciding you want your money to go to me.

To quote Colin Powell:

"Taxes are always a redistribution of money. Most of the taxes that are redistributed go back to those who paid them, in roads and airports and hospitals and schools. And taxes are necessary for the common good. And there is nothing wrong with examining what our tax structure is or who should be paying more, who should be paying less. And for us to say that that makes you a socialist, I think is an unfortunate characterization that isn't accurate.

I don't want my taxes raised. I don't want anybody else's taxes raised. But I also want to see our infrastructure fixed. I don't want to have a $12 trillion national debt, and I don't want to see an annual deficit that's over $500 billion heading toward a trillion. So, how do we deal with all of this?"

Obama's plan makes the most fisal sense, AND it means MORE Americans keep their hard-earned money.

It is McCain and Palin who want to control what I can and can't do because I'm a woman. It is McCain and Palin who want me to follow the rules of their religion whether I'm a believer or not. It is McCain and Palin who want to dictate what is "moral" for me to do.

Indigo Red said...

Now, Carrie, you wish to lecture with quotes from Colin Powell. Why don't also try justifying the American Revolution the wisdom of Benedict Arnold, or the equality of man through the ruminations of George Wallace?

Carrie said...

Fine. IGNORE the Powell quote. Address all the other points I've made. I'll even recap them for you:

1) Joe the Plumber will save more money under Obama's tax plan than under McCain's. Fully 98% of Americans will not spend a penny more in taxes under Obama, and if you are middle class, you will KEEP MORE OF YOUR HARD-EARNED MONEY under Obama than under McCain.

2) The vast majority of economists (including many who identify as Republicans) think the Obama fiscal plan is superior and in fact think that McCain's plan is BAD for the long-term growth of our nation.

3) If you make less than $250K a year, and you vote for McCain, then YOU are volunteering to give more of your hard-earned money away to the government, and the McCain government will in turn give that money to me (one of the "rich") and to big companies that are sending jobs overseas.

4) You want me out of your business. I want McCain/Palin away from my body and my doctor's office. They are the ones who are "without a sense of propriety, proportion, perspective, respect, or decency" (quoting your original post) because they think the "health" of the mother is nothing but a big loophole.

Indigo Red said...

"Address all the other points I've made."


You do not think large enough, Carrie. Your arguements are stuck on one individual, Joe the Plumber. When Mike said, 'you' want to decide how to distribute tax money, you immediately assumed Mike literally meant 'you, Carrie' when the the rest of us clearly understood Liberal group.

I simply do not care about who will or will not benefit under which plan. You, Carrie, are simply missing the point. Obama is pushing for a Socialist state which I do not want. Period.

Carrie said...

Well, naturally I circled back to Joe the Plumber: that's where YOUR post began, and that was a point I felt had been left unaddressed. I now understand that you are all willing to pay more in personal taxes and risk the financial collapse of our nation to make sure that there aren't any "socialist" policies enacted by the next president.

I repeat that the vast majority of economists support the Obama plan. They're not socialists.

I misunderstood Mike's reference to "you" in part because, as one of my previous posts indicated, I was trying to have a debate AMONG INDIVIDUALS. I'm not a group. I'm just me.

McCain is redistributing wealth, too, you know. He's just redistributing it to the richest people and companies. I think that's messed up.